Transcript – Episode 4: Chat with Janice Charette

David Morrison: Janice Charette is only the second woman in Canadian history to serve as clerk of the Privy Council, the highest not elected office in the land. Two years ago she moved from that office to become Canadian High Commissioner in London where to borrow her own phrase she has a front row seat to history in the making. She stopped by my office recently where we chatted about her management style, why she made the issues around mental health in the workplace a key part of her agenda as clerk and how Brexit presents Canada with some exciting new opportunities. Hey Janice, thanks for coming by the GAC Files. We saw each other back in January or February in London. You told me you were having a ball.

Janice Charette: indeed

David Morrison: Not least because you had a ringside seat to history I think you said...

Janice Charette: Front row seat on history...that's right...

David Morrison: I think you were talking about Brexit and not the royal wedding.

Janice Charette: I wish...

David Morrison: We assume you have by now collected a whole... a whole series of fancy hats for your wife over there. But before getting to that I want to come back here to Canada to talk about your remarkable career as deputy minister, three or four times over as deputy clerk which you were when…when we first met in 2012 and then as the clerk of the Privy Council, the second woman in Canadian history to hold that office.

David Morrison: Le greffière (the Clerk).

Janice Charette: La greffière (the Clerk). 

David Morrison: La greffière (the Clerk).   

Janice Charette: Yes, I changed the title to reflect that I am a woman, not a man.

David Morrison: A pioneer.

David Morrison:  So for those of you who don't know that meant that Janice was the boss of two hundred and fifty seven thousand federal public servants. One of the prime minister's closest advisers,  Deputy Minister of the Prime Minister's Department. There were about three or four jobs rolled into the clerkship at the same time. But I do want to begin actually at the beginning as to where you were born and what brought you to Ottawa in the first place.

Janice Charette: Well thanks for doing this David and giving me a chance to both talk about my story and reflect on it, which I think will be an interesting journey for both of us. I was actually born in Ottawa one of the one, of the few I think that you find in this very transient city. So I was born and as was my husband believe it or not and our two children, all four of us born at the Civic hospital in Ottawa, which is pretty remarkable.

David Morrison: You have two boys?

Janice Charette: No a boy and a girl, a boy and a girl. They would kill me if they heard me calling them a boy and a girl now. But a young man and a young lady. And so... so Ottawa has been my home. I lived here for most of my life. Although we lived just outside Toronto in a then small town now growing metropolis of Whitby Ontario and, but most of my adult life has been spent in Ottawa, so a big move to go to London.

David Morrison: Were your parents public servants?

Janice Charette: No, no I came from I think it's fair to say a pretty modest background. My father was a service technician at Consumers Gas and my mom was a hairdresser. She was a stay at home mom. She actually in those days, I'm not going to tell you when I was born, but it was a long time ago. My mom was working when she became pregnant with me I'm the oldest in my family and her employer forced her to quit because they couldn't have a pregnant woman working as a hairdresser, which seems pretty much remarkable to me. But anyways, she was a stay at home mom and then eventually my dad got sick and my mom went back to work. And so yeah no my mom and dad I would say graduated from the school of Hard Knocks.

David Morrison: Right.

Janice Charette: Didn't have an official certificate on their wall, so I was the first in the family to go to university and… but I had an upbringing full of love and good values a little... a little push to you know anything you're going to do you have to do right, which I think becomes a little bit of my… my career story as well. But...but a loving family and I'm very fortunate my mom's still there, still here. I unfortunately lost my Dad, but I have a brother and sister also here in Ottawa. So, we are Ottawa folk.

David Morrison: Quite a story. So, I will steer clear of the age question. But I do know from public sources that you joined the public service in 1984.

Janice Charette: I did.

David Morrison: What did you start as?

Janice Charette: I started as a term CO developmental in the Department of Finance in a unit that was corporate finance, was set up in the mid 80s to deal with the fact that the recession of the day was causing companies to come crashing down. And this was a bill of the Centre of Excellence which was helping in some cases government kind of buy out its government support for large corporates. So despite the fact that department finance has many great people and that we didn't necessarily have a corporate or a business centre in it. And so that's where I joined and less than a year later my unit was wound up and I got reorganized and that pretty much is the story of government isn't it.

David Morrison: The more things change…

Janice Charette: Absolutely, absolutely.

David Morrison: And then what did you do?

Janice Charette: I continued at the Department of Finance for a few years, but started working in other departments. One of the experiences I think was so important, so important to me was the fact that I accepted a position in the Minister’s office, the Minister of Finance. It was Michael Wilson at the time, and it was a position, a position that continues today, the position of departmental liaison, but at the time it was a little different than it is today. I started right after the budget leak, the famous budget leak, and I was responsible for briefing, for briefing the Minister of Finance each day for question period, and I was there to help with the data side and facts.  I was not responsible for the political side, but during that time I worked on several tasks in the Minister’s office so I learned a lot.

David Morrison: And the Minister at the time, I think that the Ministers’ offices were much smaller.

Janice Charette: At that time there were a dozen, a dozen of us, but not the structure and size of today. You are indeed correct.

David Morrison:  So you...you worked in the Minister's office. You were a public servant. You at different times I think worked for different

Janice Charette: Ministers

David Morrison: Ministers. You had a remarkable rise became an ADM in which department?

Janice Charette: The Department of Justice… as a non-lawyer

David Morrison: As a non-lawyer

Janice Charette: As a non-lawyer.

David Morrison: That peaked my interest. What did you do?

Janice Charette: I was the senior ADM responsible for the policy sector in the Department of Justice and I have to say this was...this was a really good example for me. This is an example I use a lot when I give career advice to...to anyone public servants and non-public servants. The Deputy Minister at the time was a great man who became a Deputy Minister here Morris Rosenberg.

David Morrison:  Sure.

Janice Charette: And I had worked with Morris and around Morris and was just a huge hugely respectful of...of him and his leadership and his intellect. And he his pitch to me at the time was and I had to compete for this job like anybody should. His pitch to me was I have a lot of lawyers in the Department of Justice, but I don't necessarily have someone who really understands how the policy side.

David Morrison: Sure.

Janice Charette: of Ottawa functions and so I'd like you to come in and...and work with the lawyers and the experts to help me to advance the policy agenda of the minister and the government in this space. And so it was as much about culture change as it was about substantive knowledge.

David Morrison: Were you almost an antibody for a while in an ADM team of lawyers?

Janice Charette: I think that's too strong because there were a lot more white blood cells killing that killing this antibody then than the contrary. No I think it was..I was...I was a wing man for Morris, I would say. I was really there to try to help him to change the culture in the organization, which turned out to be not just about...about how to do policy, how to involve and build a better relationship between regional operations and…and headquarters, but also he asked me to be a work life champion. Which is kind of like, I don't know...at the time I thought it was a joke because I thought I would be about the worst person. I have a bit of a reputation for being a pretty hard worker and long hours, but I think he you know it's Nixon to China right. If you could put Janice in charge of work-life balance maybe I would learn something about it or something like that. But the thing that I tell people about my experience at Justice is I didn't necessarily have an affinity or any deep passion for the justice policy issues. I learned those and I learned to be as passionate about those I've been about everything else in my career. But I worked for a boss who gave me an incredible amount of space, who empowered me and who forced me to learn. And so if you're trying to choose between you know an OK job with a great boss who's going to support you and a really great job without a great boss. It's a pretty obvious choice to me.

David Morrison: Right. I want to come back to that because I want to...I want to know a little bit more about what you did as the boss of all of us for a while, but let's just switch to the personal side for a second. You were rising quickly through the ranks, you had these two kids at home. I know that at least one of them was playing a lot of hockey I think...

Janice Charette: So both of them actually

David Morrison: Both of them. So how did you... I mean were you kind of an ADM or a DM and you're schlepping teenagers around to hockey games. How did you manage all of this?

Janice Charette: Well the first thing to say and the most important...most important factor in both my personal and career success has been my marriage. And so I'm married to a wonderful man who in our early part of our relationship we decided early on knowing the two of us that he would be the stay at home parent of the two of us. And so from the time our son was 3 months old. After that I went back to work and my husband stayed home full time with and raised both of our kids.

David Morrison: Wow.

Janice Charette: He worked a bit part-time as they got a little bit older, but...

David Morrison: That wasn't common then.

Janice Charette: Oh my gosh. No, it certainly wasn't. So my kids, I'll tell you how old my kids are. That's a fair question. They are 25 and 23. So you're absolutely right. And you know there were times when, my husband's name is Rege, he would go on like play dates, you know.

David Morrison: Sure.

Janice Charette: Like a lot of stay at home parents do. And he would go on play dates and then he would hear back from the mom afterwards that maybe her husband wasn't comfortable with him being around during the daytime.

David Morrison: Wow.

Janice Charette: So you know that's 25 years ago.

David Morrison: Yeah and that's what it means to be a pioneer.

Janice Charette: And now you know and now you know once the kids...once the kids went away to university then he had a lot of the same challenges in terms of stay at home parents in terms of figuring out OK so 25 years later now what am I gonna do.

David Morrison: What's my identity?

Janice Charette: Now what am I going to do. exactly. So...

David Morrison: Well I'll come back to what he's doing in the UK. Alright so let's...let's switch back to...to your professional journey. And I'm interested in your, I mean management philosophy would be to...to...to fancy a term, but I have read and seen that you have a good sense of humor. I've also been told that you're a pretty hard driving boss. How do you...how do you get the best out of people that you're managing?

Janice Charette: I'd like to think I have a sense of humor that's true. I don't like to think of myself as driving anyone harder than I would drive myself. And part of that comes from my own, I guess my own inspiration or what...what...what motivates me. And that's why I have worked in politics, I've worked in the public sector, I have worked in the private sector. And I love my work as a public servant. I consider myself a career public servant because I am motivated to do a really great job for the country and for Canadians. And so I come to work every day thinking about like how can I get the most out of myself and the organization that I'm working with in order to you know serve government, serve citizens, serve my minister and my bosses of the day, whoever they were at any level. And that's I kind of think I took that attitude all the way along. For me I've learned and you know these are lessons hard learned, I'm not sure I was all that fun to work with in my early days of being a senior leader. But you know what I learned a lot from going to retirement parties. And I would listen to the speeches that were given at retirement parties. And people don't, at retirement parties, people don't talk about you know a file or a project. What they reflect on...

David Morrison:  Is who you are.

Janice Charette: Is who you are. Right! What they remember is you know that Saturday when people had to come into the office because we had a hot file, you know, you came down and you thanked everybody for being there or you showed up with pizza and helped us to put the binders together, right. So it is and I learned this increasingly as I went along, it really is all about people. It's about picking the best people, not people that are like yourself at all, complimentary to yourself. The smartest people you can find, the people with the sometimes outrageous ideas not, not people who think the same way as you, so I'm a huge and early advocate of diversity and teams. Absolutely. And then you empower them and you support them and sometimes yeah you hold them accountable when...when things when they don't live up to their commitments, not from making mistakes, because people make mistakes.

David Morrison:  But when they let you down.

Janice Charette: But when they let themselves down or they let the organization down.

David Morrison:  So this, I just can't resist on your...on your retirement party example. There's a...there's a book called "The Road to Character" by the New York Times columnist David Brooks. And the...the...the book is really about the difference between leading a life where you build your resume and leading a life where you build your eulogy.

Janice Charette: Interesting.

David Morrison: Because at your funeral they don't talk about your CV. They talk about who you are and what's inside you. And I've actually I was very taken with this book a couple of years ago and I've given it to a whole range of people really as a management treatise in how you treat people and as you said the importance of people. And it is something that is easier to live by later on in our career.

Janice Charette: Right.

David Morrison:  Than earlier in your career and once you've gained self-confidence. And so I do want to, if you...if I forced you to isolate two or three attributes of yourself that were responsible or you would credit for your success as a leader in the Canadian public service what would they be?

Janice Charette: I'd say, in no particular order, so this is not rank order priority or anything, but I work really really hard. And so maybe too hard on occasion, but so I have...I can carry a big load and deliver. Secondly I would say that I have an ingrained tendency to run towards problems to fix them. And so maybe sometimes arriving too quickly to fix problems so that's something that I've really had to monitor and manage in myself. But I...I just can't resist when I see something that I think you know.

David Morrison: That's breaking or broken.

Janice Charette: Breaking or broken or could be better. I kind of decided I put my shoulder behind it and I just really wanna make a difference. And I think the third thing is that, hopefully anyways, that I have a reputation of somebody who people like to work with, despite the fact that there's no question, I remember doing one of my early executive assessment processes, I got a feedback of being tough, but fair. I'm sure if my boss of the day is listening to this he probably is laughing. He has no idea what kind of an impact that had on me, right. And so I've always tried to make sure that I focused more on the fair than the tough, because the tough came naturally. Right. So I really was careful about, you know, about the fair side.

David Morrison: As a newly minted member of the DM community who's facing his first feedback later today.

Janice Charette: Oh today.

David Morrison: Yeah I'm getting a call later today, so I'll let you know how that goes. What about your decision making style? Are you somebody who needs all of the evidence or are you more of a go with your gut person?

Janice Charette: I would say I have two different decision making styles. When the time allows and the situation allows I tend to be very much of a, I was going to say collaborative decision maker. I don't think that's really it. What I seek are lots of various inputs. There is nothing that makes me happier than to pull 10 people around a table and just talk something through and hear different perspectives and test my idea.

David Morrison:  Everybody brings something.

Janice Charette: Exactly. And as much as possible kind of, it's almost like the family dinner table you get everybody around the table which is why you know one of my...my first step as a deputy minister, I was Immigration, as it was then called Citizenship and Immigration. And we could get actually all the management team around the table and thrash out an issue. And so that really helped my decision making. And so I like to do that. But there are times when you don't have that...that

David Morrison:  You got to move too quickly.

Janice Charette: You've got to move, there's a crisis and so there I am absolutely a go with my gut person. And it has served me well. And you spend your whole life kind of refining your gut to actually be that what gets you through the tough spots.

David Morrison: How about on people? Are you sort of intuitive on...I talked to Marc-Andre Blanchard who's our ambassador to the permanent rep to the UN in New York and he was head of Canada's largest law firm and he says that he never considered himself a brilliant lawyer, but he considered himself a brilliant talent spotter.

Janice Charette: I am a pretty good talent spotter as well I would say. I...I do have a tendency though to go with a dark horse over a natural establishment candidate. Sometimes because it's good to have an agent of change around the table just to kind of show a different side of things to you. I can sometimes be a bit too quick to judge and so that's something that I've really...

David Morrison: Tried to work on.

Janice Charette: Worked on as well, exactly like you know. Let people...some people, you know, show differently in different circumstances.

David Morrison: And over...over…yeah different circumstances, different amounts of time.

Janice Charette: I also think I am pretty good at second and even third chances.

David Morrison: Right, very important.

Janice Charette: So I don't...I don't have.

David Morrison:  You don't bear a grudge.

Janice Charette: You know once and you're out. Oh I have a little bit of a grudge, but very few.

David Morrison: Okay. When I think of your contribution as Clerk, I immediately think of mental health. Janice was a very strong and is a very strong advocate for issues of mental health in the workplace and that is now part of all EX PMA's, I believe. So there's...there's even an accountability.

Janice Charette: Good.

David Morrison: For all of us to say on an annual basis how we've contributed to that agenda. Where did it come from?

Janice Charette: This is not a short answer, but I had the honor I would say of chairing the United Way campaign for the Government of Canada, our annual charitable campaign and that exposed to me... I mean I worked in the national platform my whole career, but this gave me a very local look and I started to understand about some of the challenges in the community. And at the end of that I decided I wanted to actually make a contribution in the community and take my skills and see what I could do. About the same time there was a tragic incident which is public so I can talk about it of the suicide of Daron Richardson. Daron was the daughter of Stephanie and Luke Richardson. Luke played for the Ottawa Senators. They have another daughter named Morgan and Morgan Richardson and my daughter Casey played hockey together. And so we knew the Richardsons well. We'd spent lots of hours around the hockey rink with them and...and you get to know each other pretty well and...and so when Daron committed suicide it was...it was a shock I would say to all of us, of course to her parents, but to all of us.

David Morrison: How old was she?

Janice Charette: She was 14 and nobody saw it coming. This was a wonderful, wonderful young lady with a bubbly personality, talent, smarts, great family, beautiful. And it just kind of came out of nowhere. And so that was... it was kind of like a bolt of lightning to me that if I was going to do something, I was going to see what I could do to help mental health. So I joined the board of the Royal Ottawa here and so that...and I've been really focused on access, access issues access to mental health services particularly for young people. And there are some transition issues in our system. But as I took on roles as both the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council and then as Clerk I had a responsibility as well for the kind of health and wellness of the public service as a whole and the statistics in terms of the prevalence of mental illness in our society are, you can't argue with them. And so both from the compassionate empathetic side of my personality, in terms of caring about people, but also from a productivity and bottom line absentee perspective. It made absolute sense to me to think about OK what's our biggest wellness issue and it was stigma and the fact that people didn't feel comfortable to talk about it and people didn't have the tools to talk about or deal with it in our workplace. And you know, it sounds like a cliché but if you can actually change the life of just one person it makes it worthwhile. A number of public servants across the country that have spoken to me, that have written to me about this, that it just, it made them feel more comfortable in the workplace. And actually I think we retained more people and we have people who are making an even better contribution as a result of it. So I couldn't be prouder of this.

David Morrison: Well as someone who left the public service and then came back it's a…it's a really dramatic difference.

Janice Charette: That's interesting.

David Morrison: The sense that...this...it's okay to talk about.

Janice Charette: That's good to hear.

David Morrison: And it's okay to...as part of your role as a manager to ask how people are doing and to expect an honest and fulsome response.

Janice Charette: And to be equipped somehow if you get an answer that's like, "not so great today".

David Morrison: Right.

Janice Charette: Right.

David Morrison: So and that's as I was saying I think certainly in large part of your legacy as clerk. So post clerk, you were asked to become our High Commissioner to London.

Janice Charette: Right.

David Morrison: Which is one of our absolute jewels in the Canadian diplomatic service. I'm interested in...in your front row seats to what's going on there. Obviously an extraordinarily challenging time for Britain in the world. Britain and Europe obviously, Britain and the world. Where does Canada fit in as one of Britain's closest friends and allies historically?

Janice Charette: It is...it's a fascinating time to be in the United Kingdom. And so there's no question it's not an easy time for our friends, the Brits as they go through now trying to decide their future outside the European Union. And of course there's all the machinations around Brexit and what their future relationship is going to be in the economic and security and defense side. But I think that, you know, and the EU and the UK will have those negotiations and you know our job is to try and make sure we manage their any risk to Canadian interests through all of that. But as I look at it I think that there's a real opportunity for Canada here. And as the UK thinks of their future outside the European Union they'll be looking around the world for who are our partners, who are our allies, who are our friends, who can we do business with. And I think Canada's ideally positioned and I think it's fair to say that if we look back over the last, I mean the UK has been in the EU for 40 years, give or take. In that period I think that, you know, we've had a wonderful relationship, we have a lot in common, but it's not clear to me that we kind of made any effort to get the most out of it.

David Morrison: It's not been, there's a lot of history, there's a lot of momentum there, but it's not been, "what can we do together?”

Janice Charette: Yeah not necessarily purposeful.

David Morrison: Not deliberate.

Janice Charette: Exactly right. So. So we've really I think tried to in carpe diem as they say, take advantage of the fact that...that there is this...this...this possibility. And actually last...last September 2017 Prime Minister May came to visit Prime Minister Trudeau here. And so they had a meeting and the prime ministers agreed on an action plan of what we're going to do together. And that covers what we would consider to be kind of traditional areas of cooperation, security, defense and so on. But it includes some interesting new areas science, technology, research, innovation where our interests and our priorities are completely aligned. And...

David Morrison: Climate change?

Janice Charette: Climate change indirectly but more as a how are we...how are we moving to a clean growth green economy.

David Morrison: Which fits with innovation and science and technology.

Janice Charette: Right.Yeah I think that's right. But the other interesting parts of all of this...of this were I like to consider it kind of like the plumbing and wiring of the relationship, which sounds really boring. But we, the prime ministers agreed to an annual strategic dialogue between ministers of foreign affairs, development and defense.

David Morrison: Right.

Janice Charette: So an annual strategic dialogue that doesn't exist with any other partner 3 plus 3 where we can actually sit down and talk about where are the issues on which we together can make a difference.

David Morrison: Boring, but hugely important in terms of pushing things ahead.

Janice Charette: And also we've done the same thing in terms of the public service. So my successor the clerk of the Privy Council will meet with his counterpart the...the secretary of the Cabinet, Clerk of the Privy Council in the UK called a little bit differently different title there along with a number of deputy ministers. And that...that means that every year we'll have this humber opportunity both at the political level and the senior ranks of the public service to check how we're doing on the relationship.

David Morrison: Making it more deliberate.

Janice Charette: Deliberate and I think, you know, if Canada is smart about this and I sure hope as long as we're in, I'm in London we're going to work on this, that's my you know trying to make progress instincts coming through, that if we push on this agenda I think it's pushing on an open door and we've got the...we've got the mechanisms to make it happen. So it's up to us to be ambitious about the relationship and I think our partners in the UK will be very welcoming of that.

David Morrison: Before I let you go I...I joked at a function yesterday that I don't have a real job description and that's part of being an associate deputy minister.

Janice Charette: Oh yes you do.

David Morrison: But you have viewed Global Affairs and its predecessors from the outside you're now looking at it as one of us from...from the inside. What advice would you give to me as to two or three things where I should lean in and try to make the kind of change that you're famous for?

Janice Charette: I'll start with the positive because that's kind of how I like to start. I am continuously impressed with the passion and the dedication and the and the conviction of people that colleagues that I made here at Global Affairs who are prepared not just to go to the you know nice places like London, but who are prepared to go into some of the more difficult and challenging parts of the world and try and carry the Canada flag and make a difference on the ground, not just for Canadians, but you know to try, you know, to try and rescue human rights workers, you know, female human rights workers who are who are run out of the country and who risked their life, you know, putting their, putting their own personal safety on the line. You know I think that that's really it's noble and it's impressive and it comes... it comes from I think a sense of vocation. And so I'm really impressed with that. But, but there is a but and an and I don't know it kind of goes to your point about I'm one of you now. I will never be one of you. I am from the outside. I am not Global Affairs. I don't know the stories. I'm not part of the guild as someone described it once to me.

David Morrison: No one's given you the secret handshake.

Janice Charette: I...I couldn't find the secret handshake with a...with a map. And so I think that's one thing that and there's a…there’s a really important balance to be struck here. And I would not for a second suggest to you that we throw out a department that is steeped in experience and knowledge and has that...that ability to interact not just you know in Ottawa but really around the world. So we need knowledge and experience and expertise, but there has to be some way as well to acknowledge that in 2018 and certainly going forward there is no difference between international and domestic. And so we've got to think about how we build the people component that's going to allow us to deliver internationally what we need to do for Canada. And I can't help but think that that is not just...

David Morrison: it's not just the workforce.

Janice Charette: The workforce that we have today. And maybe it doesn't mean, you know, we're talking about the mission of the future, we should be talking about headquarters of the future as well. So how do we... how do we build a headquarters that works in this town, in the way that, you know, networked, all the things we've been talking about. We've had a Heads of Mission's meeting for the last two days and we've talked a lot about getting out of kind of just the regular relationships where people are heads of mission go in and talk to government people. Right are we engaging with civil society actors? Are we engaging with businesses? How do we do that in this city and engage with a broader group of stakeholders so that, you know, what we do for Canada internationally is taking advantage of all that skill and expertise.

David Morrison: Not just Global Affairs. We're going to run out of time.

Janice Charette: That's sad.

David Morrison: But I would be remiss if I didn't ask what your husband is doing in London.

Janice Charette: He's a very patient soul. So right now he's, we're just at the coming to the end of our second year. My gosh it goes awfully quickly. And so he is mostly spending his time enjoying all of the wonders of London. He's become a very good tour guide for our frequent visitors. London tends to be a place lots of people come to visit. But the other thing is that unlike every job I've ever had in my career I think being a high commissioner at least in London is a team sport.

David Morrison: Right. He participates.

Janice Charette: And so he participates and you know he has voluntarily taken on the role within the mission of reaching out to the new CBS that are coming into the mission every year, but also to their spouses so there's a little bit of an informal network, which I gather we used to have.

David Morrison: Yup. Absolutely.

Janice Charette: You see I'm calling myself part of we. We used to have once upon a time...

David Morrison: We will get you yet.

Janice Charette: But and he really enjoys doing that. So the people who maybe having a little struggle or need a little bit of extra help he's trying to do that as well. And he became a beekeeper until he developed a bee allergy for our bees that we have on the roof of Canada House in London which is magnificent and we look forward to welcoming you back there really soon.

David Morrison: Well Janice, it’s always a pleasure.

Janice Charette: Thank you.

David Morrison: This has been great. I would love to come back and visit you in London and we'll catch up again then.

Janice Charette: You are welcome anytime.

David Morrison: Okay, thank you very much.

Janice Charette: Thanks David.

David Morrison: Bye.